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Are you comfortable in your own shoes? This is the first in a two-part conversation about five characteristics of exceptional leaders.

Podcast Transcript

Joshua MacLeod:
People who are not comfortable in their own shoes, spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about themselves and thinking about what they need to do to fit in. So rather than just being who they are going to school, rocking their styles, or going to the office, being their own person, not really worried about what everybody else thinks. They have enough energy then to focus on the problems they’re focusing on at work, the customer needs that they’re trying to serve. If you’re not comfortable in your own shoes, you’re spending all your time worrying about keeping up with the Joneses and what everybody else is doing. How can you lead others? You don’t have enough mental space.

Podcast Announcer:
Welcome to the Growability podcast, teaching business and nonprofit leaders. A more excellent way to run a business. Visit growability.com for your leadership, coaching consultation and business collaboration needs. Are you comfortable in your own shoes? This is the first in a two-part conversation about five characteristics of exceptional leaders. Here are your hosts, Joshua MacLeod, and Bernie Anderson.

Bernie Anderson:
You said something about there being 5 S’s of what makes a great leader. Tell us about the 5 S’s that make a great leader.

Joshua MacLeod:
So the first S that makes a great leader is someone who is comfortable in their own shoes. We live in a society where everybody is trying to be somebody else. And so when somebody just shows up on the scene and they are not trying to be somebody else, they’re not trying to prove a point. They’re not trying to do something they don’t believe in. They’re not trying to wear this fashion or that fashion, or drive this car or that car. Just somebody who actually is comfortable in their own shoes is such an important key to not only being a great leader, but becoming a great leader. So Bernie, I have a confession to make. This is hard for me to say on a public platform on our podcast here, I have a confession. I hate golf. Like I really…golf, This is even worse because I’m Scottish.

Joshua MacLeod:
Like, you know, MacLeod, I’ve got the Scottish name here. I, and I hate golf. In fact, it’s like the Scots realized that they couldn’t dominate the world. You know, this Viking heritage, they realized we can’t just take over. So they decided to do two things. They were going to ruin sports and they were going to ruin music. So to ruin music, they invented the bagpipes and then to ruin sports, they invented golf. And so they have frustrated millions and millions of people. Even if you can’t take over the world in a Viking ship, you can at least frustrate millions of people. What’s crazy here Bernie is I used to think if I don’t play golf, I’m going to lose so many opportunities. I’m not going to have good business deals. And the best decisions happen out on the golf course. And you’re trying to make the big deal.

Joshua MacLeod:
And the big client comes in from out of town. So I’ve got to go and I’ve got to learn golf. So I’m at the golf course and I’m spending like my first thousand dollars learning to stick my butt out and keep my head down. And even though it feels like I’m going to hit my knee, keep my knee popped out and swing the club.

Bernie Anderson:
Right.

Joshua MacLeod:
And so then I go out on the golf course and they’re going left. They’re going right. I’m putting my butt out. I’m doing all of this stuff. But at some point in time, I have to realize like, wait a second. I don’t really like this. I don’t know if it’s just me. It may be that I’m the only one. But I think a lot of times business owners feel stuck with the, I-have-to’s of business. Like I have to do this.

Joshua MacLeod:
I have to do this. I have to do this. Listen, if you don’t like golf, that’s totally fine. I haven’t lost any clients from golf. I’ve told tons of people now that I don’t like golf and it doesn’t matter. Anybody that’s trying to be somebody else or faking. They don’t really attract people. So I think one of the things that makes someone, a great leader, they’re comfortable in your own shoes. Like I help a lot of clients interview their teams. And one of the questions in the back of my head, whenever I interview anyone, is this person comfortable in their own shoes? If they’re not comfortable in their own shoes? I don’t know that. I mean, it might take me 10 years to figure out who they actually are. So what do you think about that? Do you think that that’s a trait that is important for leaders? Yeah.

Bernie Anderson:
Yeah. If a leader is simply someone who just goes with the crowd, they’re not really leading, are they? One question I have Joshua, when you are doing those interviews or training a client on, “Hey, let’s look for this particular leadership quality.” How do you look for that? How do- what are the signs that you get to say, ah, this person’s comfortable in their own shoes?

Joshua MacLeod:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think one of the core signs that somebody is comfortable in their shoes is when they’re just kind of brutally honest about something. Let’s say you’re interviewing someone for like a tech company and they, they want you to understand like three different programming languages. And you just say, I’ve worked in this one comprehensively. I really understand this one. I don’t understand that one at all. Or I’m really, don’t like that one. Like that is just not my cup of tea. It’s almost like we’ve trained everybody to have not an opinion about things,

Bernie Anderson:
Right.

Joshua MacLeod:
What if you have a different political persuasion than me, and now you’re going to just hate me because I voted for so-and-so or I think so-and-so? Really, that’s just shallow. If people can’t relate to each other with differences, then it’s going to limit their capacity to grow. Like you only are ever going to make friends who are just like you, which is not really, you know, that’s just crazy.

Bernie Anderson:
And if you’re comfortable in your own shoes, then you’re comfortable with other people being in their own shoes too, right?

Joshua MacLeod:
Well, and if you think about it, Bernie, people who are not comfortable in their own shoes, spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about themselves and thinking about what they need to do to fit in. So rather than just being who they are going to school, rocking their styles, or go into the office, being their own person, not really worried about what everybody else thinks. They have enough energy then to focus on the problems they’re focusing on at work, the customer needs that they’re trying to serve. If you’re not comfortable in your own shoes, you’re spending all your time worrying about keeping up with the Joneses and what everybody else is doing.

Joshua MacLeod:
How can you lead others? You don’t have enough mental space being comfortable in your own shoes is definitely a hallmark of what it takes to make a great leader. What makes you a great leader?

Bernie Anderson:
All right, well, what’s the second S?

Joshua MacLeod:
The second S is being comfortable with your own leadership style. You read a book on leadership style from Jack Welch, and it’s like, “this is how to be a leader.” No, that’s how Jack Wells should be a leader. You read a book about Steve Jobs that says, “this is how to be a leader.” No, that’s how Steve jobs was a leader. Bill Gates is a way different leader than Steve Jobs. It’s not being a different kind of leader. It’s being your kind of leader. What kind of leader are you? I read this great article in Forbes, they did this study with 1200 different entrepreneurs at different businesses.

Joshua MacLeod:
And after doing this study, they came out with data that said, there’s really, there’s like five different types of leaders. The five different types of leaders that they mentioned, the first one is ‘Movers and Shakers.’ So movers and shakers are people that they help move a business forward by sheer force of will. They’re intense. They’re Rocky Balboa. They’re the Energizer bunnies. They stay focused. They get the job done. When they show up to work, they work. That’s a leadership style. It’s a style that you see in a lot of startups. It’s a style that you see in organizations that are very successful in larger organizations, but their leadership style is let’s shake things up. If you were a mover and a shaker, you’re going to move, and you’re going to shake. The second type of leader that they have is an ‘Experimenter’. The only thing that they’re shaking up is like the test tube.

Joshua MacLeod:
Like they shake up lots of different ideas. So the experimenter gets in the lab. They’re the idea tank. They’re the idea factory. And they’re willing to take a risk. Experimenters are people who will try 10 different things to see if one of them sticks. And the one that sticks is often so good, that it’s a hundred times better than every safe option on the market. So you have to take a risk to try a bunch of different things, and you have to take a risk to do something that nobody has really done before. If you take that risk, that thing can explode. The thing that’s important though, about experimenters. Sometimes there’s people in our lives and everything is a get rich, quick scheme. I’m going to make a million dollars with new cell phone idea or my new skincare idea or my new blah, blah, blah.

Joshua MacLeod:
And they’re always running from the new idea, the new idea, new idea, new idea. And they never actually have any success. So experimenters are not people that are just money chasers. They’re people who have actually done at least one thing that works. And then to their next business or their next thing, they are going to expand and take some risks. The third is the ‘Star Pupil’. You know, there’s that kid in high school where when you call on them and you’re like, Hey, do you know what the square root of 694? And he was like, Ooh, I know the answer. And then they do know the answers. Star pupils are basically just good at everything. Good at building a brand. They’re good at getting things done. They’re either the superstar that’s out in front, like singing, you know, with a great tone or they’re the drummer in the background is just hitting the drum and staying on beat every single time. Their whole game is I’m going to be the Olympiad and I’m going to be the best of the best. They’re just really good at everything.

Bernie Anderson:
Yeah.

Joshua MacLeod:
The fourth is people who are just super careful in your company, let’s say that it costs you 5 cents to produce 10 cents worth of profit. Well, they’re like, “well, what can we do to only cost 4 cents to produce 10 cents of profit?” So they’re really good at systems and processes. They want to make sure that everybody is on the same team. They want to make sure that everybody is in the same line. So that the name for this type is ‘The Controller. They’re like the financial controller. That’s what a financial controller in an organization does. They make sure that they’re producing more with less, like how can we cut our costs and still produce more? And then finally you have the, what I call ‘Anchors.’

Joshua MacLeod:
Anchors are people who look, we’re going to stay in the middle. My favorite position is right down the middle. I’m not going to risk over here. I’m not going to risk over there. What worked in the past? Well, let’s stay on that and let’s do it again. They like to pick the middle. There’s five different styles of leadership. One is mover and shaker. The second is an experimenter, the third, a star pupil, the fourth, a controller, and then the fifth and anchor, what great leaders do is they realize, Hey, this is my leadership style. And then they don’t try to be something else. If your Rocky Balboa just take the punch in the face and keep going. If you’re an experimenter and something, doesn’t work, try something else. If you’re a star pupil, make sure that what you’re doing, what you’re good at. If you’re a controller, figure out how you can fix sloppiness.

Joshua MacLeod:
If you’re an anchor, Hey, stay the course. Like keep people down to earth. In an organization, If you’re working with a leader that has a different style than you like, then go find an organization that has a leader that you do like. The leader just needs to lead in their way. Now here’s, what’s really important, no matter which of those types of leaders that you are, it’s really important to make sure that your organization is in the right season to maximize your leadership style. If I have a startup organization, a mover, and a shaker and an experimenter and a star pupil, like all of those great a controller doesn’t have anything to do. If I’m a CFO that helped like a billion dollar organization, and now I’m going to go help this a hundred thousand dollar organization. You don’t really have anything to do. Like, what am I going to do?

Bernie Anderson:
Right.

Joshua MacLeod:
So at the same time, if I’m in a billion dollar organization and I have a mover and shaker that wants to come in and change everything, it’s kind of like, well, you know, wait a second, we already got a working thing here. Maybe you could start the new division. So leaders are comfortable with their own style. They’re comfortable in their own shoes, but they’re also comfortable in their leadership style.

Bernie Anderson:
Which style do you tend towards?

Joshua MacLeod:
So getting to where we are, mover and shaker, it’s 22% of executives are movers and shakers. They basically just keep going until it works, stay alive and stay humble. And it will work. Also. I think I have a bit of just star pupil. I’m not intimidated by something. I don’t know, because I figure I’ll make that work. Yeah. Experimenters controllers and anchors are kind of like, eh, let me just, I’ll toss the ball to somebody else to do those things. I, I want to be good and I want to see it through, how about you, Bernie? Which of those do you see for yourself on that list?

Bernie Anderson:
I see some combination of experimenter, star pupil, in my experience. I’m not afraid to try things and.

Joshua MacLeod:
Yeah.

Bernie Anderson:
And what you were-the reason I know this earlier is probably because of the weakness side of things of, Hey, you need to stop trying things. And actually like, like

Joshua MacLeod:
Finish that thing.

Bernie Anderson:
Do the thing that’s gonna work, right? but that’s where the star pupil piece comes in where I do.

Joshua MacLeod:
Yeah.

Bernie Anderson:
Like I want to learn and know how to do this and do this well. So I would see myself kind of in that space, I believe.

Podcast Announcer:
Thank you for listening to the growability podcast. The mission of Growability is to equip leaders to flourish in their life and work by developing vision, rhythm, and community. To discover if there is a more excellent way to run your business, visit growability.com and speak with a certified Growability coach. Bernie and Joshua are also available for speaking engagements, workshops and conferences. Subscribing to this podcast helps Growability equip leaders throughout the world, and we appreciate your support.